Music Talk Board

Do you mean Bilbo is that second paragraph?

If so I agree. I loved how clever he was in the books and the only part he's really like that in the movies is the scene with Golem. Which is probably the best part from either movie.

(01-24-2014, 06:26 AM)Danjo Wrote: [ -> ]Well the Necromancer is actually mentioned in the Hobbit.

Yeah, but it was very brief. We didn't know that Gandalf and the Elves were working to drive out the Necromancer until the LotR, when we learned that Sauron had been the Necromancer.

Quote:Also I forgot to mention, but the stuff they changed in the second part bothered me less than what they changed in the first one. I was really mad about all the Azog nonsense, and the fact that Saruman and Galadriel showed up. Also they kinda fucked up Frodo's character development, he was too bold already in the first one, and even in the second one he was being more bold than he was clever, which was not so in the books.

I assume you mean Bilbo. And yeah, that bothered me too for a bit, but then I decided to take it as its story. /shrug

I think a large part of it is that they're doing in 3 films what they should have done in 1 or maybe 2.

Oops, yeah, Bilbo. I feel like that was just Murphy's Law for fandom, haha. Claim to be a huge fan and then mix up two character's names.

I don't remember a scene with a golem...


Well the Saruman thing mostly bugged me because he was being a bitch, which wouldn't have happened until later when he knew about the ring. And a little more cleverness and a little less brute force.

Yeah, I'm not sure why they decided to do that. The Hobbit is like half as long as any of the LOTR books.

(01-26-2014, 01:17 AM)Danjo Wrote: [ -> ]Well the Saruman thing mostly bugged me because he was being a bitch, which wouldn't have happened until later when he knew about the ring.

The LotR sort of implies that Saruman was always that way. He was the White Wizard (basically leader of the Wizard Order), and he led by being cautious. Which usually came out as rather bitchy, due to his arrogance. It stands to reason that all that stuff with Saruman and Galadrial (also a member of the White Council, which the Wizards were members of) would have been going on in the background. We just never heard about in the Hobbit book, because Bilbo wouldn't have known any of that stuff.

Having just reviewed it I guess he wasn't being specifically evil, but having been sent into the world to protect it from evil, he should really be a bit more proactive. I guess he could have acted like that though. But also having just watched it I was reminded how much it bothered me that they acted like Galadriel was in charge of Gandalf somehow. Which is definitely not the case at all.

(01-27-2014, 12:49 AM)Danjo Wrote: [ -> ]Having just reviewed it I guess he wasn't being specifically evil, but having been sent into the world to protect it from evil, he should really be a bit more proactive. I guess he could have acted like that though. But also having just watched it I was reminded how much it bothered me that they acted like Galadriel was in charge of Gandalf somehow. Which is definitely not the case at all.

Well, she kind of was, but kind of wasn't. She was a member of the White Council and certainly a significant influence on him.

But he's a minor god and she's an elf. He's agreed to be part of a council that she's also on, but in no way is she in a position of authority over him. Really Saruman is the only person in all of middle earth who Gandalf should answer to, but even those two are equals, and both far superior to the elves. He listens to her because he chooses to listen to her, he respects her and value her opinion. But if she was like " Gandalf, you aren't allowed to play with the Dwarves." he would just be like "Bitch please! I was around before the earth was created! I helped shape this world! (albeit in probably a rather minor way) Why don't you just try and stop me?! Gandalf out!"

Because at that point he would obviously become a hardcore gangster.

(01-27-2014, 10:11 PM)Danjo Wrote: [ -> ]But he's a minor god and she's an elf.

I don't think the wizards ever saw themselves (with the exception of Saruman, who seemed to talk down everyone he met) ever saw themselves as "minor gods". And, really, in the LotR series, the Maiar are never viewed that way. They're simply viewed as a more powerful and rare race. Yes, they're "minor gods". But so what? They generally didn't tend to act superior because of it.

Quote:He's agreed to be part of a council that she's also on, but in no way is she in a position of authority over him.

I never got the impression she was exerting authority over him; really, she was just meeting with him and Saruman at Saruman's bequest. She certainly never tried to do more than advise him. Also, she's arguably one of the most magically gifted elves of the time, so I think she could be considered an equal to him -- at least, an equal on the White Council.

Quote:Really Saruman is the only person in all of middle earth who Gandalf should answer to, but even those two are equals, and both far superior to the elves.

I don't think it could be said they're FAR superior. And Galadriel is certainly the equal of Gandalf in terms of magical ability.

Quote:He listens to her because he chooses to listen to her, he respects her and value her opinion. But if she was like " Gandalf, you aren't allowed to play with the Dwarves." he would just be like "Bitch please! I was around before the earth was created! I helped shape this world! (albeit in probably a rather minor way) Why don't you just try and stop me?! Gandalf out!"

Because at that point he would obviously become a hardcore gangster.

:haha: But that wouldn't be very Gandalf-like. :haha:

The Maiar are a lower division of the Valar, who were with Illuvitar when the world was created. Then they went into the world that they had helped to create. That makes them gods. The elves (and men, dwarves, and everything else living in Middle Earth) were all created by the Valar (who include the Maiar) through the power of Illuvitar. Thats a huge distinction. And theres not really any reason to say they're rare, they just aren't super important among the Valar so they aren't mentioned. I'm not saying they need to act superior, but they are in fact superior, even if they decide to act humble to get people to work with them, as per their instructions (here I'm specifically talking about the Istari of course).

She herself doesn't act that way, but the lines from the scene are Gandalf-"I do not believe Thorin Oakenshield feels that he is answerable to anyone. Nor for that matter am I." Elrond-"It is not me you must answer to." Then they both look at Galadriel standing on a raised platform as she slowly turn around, and Gandalf makes a face like "Oh shit, I'm in trouble!". He then bows to her and she does not bow back in response.

Everything about that suggests that in the context of the film Galadriel is his superior, which is just not true.

I completely disagree. I don't have a lot of points to use in an argument because the magic in LOTR is really subtle and no one does anything crazy so that we could directly measure their power. All I can say, although it might not really be a point of magical ability, is that Gandalf dies fighting the Balrog, and then he comes back to Middle Earth. No elf could (or did) ever do that.

(01-30-2014, 10:01 PM)Danjo Wrote: [ -> ]The Maiar are a lower division of the Valar, who were with Illuvitar when the world was created. Then they went into the world that they had helped to create. That makes them gods.

Yes...minor gods.

Quote:The elves (and men, dwarves, and everything else living in Middle Earth) were all created by the Valar (who include the Maiar) through the power of Illuvitar. Thats a huge distinction.

I know. I read the Silmarillion too.

Quote:And theres not really any reason to say they're rare, they just aren't super important among the Valar so they aren't mentioned.

They are rare in Middle Earth, since most of them live across the ocean with all the other Valar.

Quote:I'm not saying they need to act superior, but they are in fact superior, even if they decide to act humble to get people to work with them, as per their instructions (here I'm specifically talking about the Istari of course).

Mmmk.

Quote:She herself doesn't act that way, but the lines from the scene are Gandalf-"I do not believe Thorin Oakenshield feels that he is answerable to anyone. Nor for that matter am I." Elrond-"It is not me you must answer to." Then they both look at Galadriel standing on a raised platform as she slowly turn around, and Gandalf makes a face like "Oh shit, I'm in trouble!". He then bows to her and she does not bow back in response.

Everything about that suggests that in the context of the film Galadriel is his superior, which is just not true.

I took that more as a respectful greeting, not a "she's my boss" thing.

Quote:I completely disagree. I don't have a lot of points to use in an argument because the magic in LOTR is really subtle and no one does anything crazy so that we could directly measure their power. All I can say, although it might not really be a point of magical ability, is that Gandalf dies fighting the Balrog, and then he comes back to Middle Earth. No elf could (or did) ever do that.

Actually, there's several elves who fought balrogs. One even fought Morgoth. And really, the only reason Gandalf was brought back was because Tolkien seemed to love infusing Christ-like parallels in his character. He was a Catholic; and while he didn't basically write an allegory (a la some of C. S. Lewis's Narnia books), he did infuse a lot of Christian ideas into his characters. hrug: