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I think there are a lot of problems in the education system but state involvement isn't one of them. I support public education, and am supportive of basic guidelines for schools. The issues IMO mostly stem from the state funding drastically favouring already privileged schools and neglecting underprivileged schools. There's definitely some curriculum issues (and as 12 y/o as it sounds I don't like the 'brainwashing' but you'll still get that in all types of schools, probably more so in home school settings. Imagine your parents teaching history to you lol) but these aren't near as urgent as the other issues are.

I really liked my "3/10" overcrowded school. Even if most of the classes were 'low quality' and the classes were meaningless. I'd take it over my 9/10 upper class school. I am so glad I was never home schooled or sent to private school. Don't let ur schooling get in the way of ur education.

(11-06-2014, 04:10 PM)peternorthstars Wrote: [ -> ]I understand exactly how frustrating voting can be, believe me. I just feel a certain civic duty to at least educate myself and do my tiny, irrelevant part. I usually vote for the green party man. ( :rasta: )

and jeez, lol.

I'd vote green if they were allowed on the ballot. :/

I don't know if 'jeez' is at my attitude or the referendum but it's seriously stupid considering that none of this shit is actually unconstitutional (you all already know how I hate people's attitude towards that document to begin with but that doesn't even need to come into play for this to be dumb) and 'unconstitutional' is Arizona Tea Party/crazy branch of Republicans code name for 'shit we don't agree with'. This whole 'federal government is tyrannical' shit really took off with the immigration stuff (screaming 'secure the border' aka profile Hispanics is so out of touch with the actual issues) and it's really hypocritical since Jan Brewer of all people wanted to bypass constitutional term limits to run for governor again lol. Then came the 'fuck the UN/federal US government' and 'let's ban communists' rhetoric (the let's ban 'pro-Mexican opinions/ethnic studies in schools' shit has been in full swing for a while). Digressions aside, the referendum itself is just another excuse for the state to withhold funds from the public and push its Republican controlled agenda of keeping healthcare and other things privatised and to place all federally protected land under state control (i.e. go to the federal government when you need them but conveniently ignore them when you want your state to be more backwards than everyone else). Too bad this proposal about protecting the constitution is actually unconstitutional lol.

The far-right screaming 'freedom' is just so dumb since their ideal society is actually very authoritarian.
(11-07-2014, 01:19 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]probably more so in home school settings. Imagine your parents teaching history to you lol
You don't understand much about homeschooling, do you? You realize that ALL states (as in, 100% of states) have requirements on what books/curriculum materials you can use, right? I was homeschooled until middle school, and at no point was my mother or father shoving wrongful history down my throat. In fact, we learned it out of one of the same books public schools in the area did. The only difference was, because there was only me and my sister, we had more attention. Oh, and guess what? Both my sister and I schooled VERY high on the SATs every year. Maybe you should learn a bit more about homeschooling before judging things, huh?

I believe Phils was homeschooled too, and I'm sure he turned out good.

Edit:
And not that it matters, but my mother did have a teaching degree. She actually taught in public school before she married my dad.
I wasn't trying to stereotype home-schooling. You always get so pissed about this when my 'lol' is meant to ease tension. :flower: It's obviously not the best universal alternative to public schools though because most people have parents too busy for that or parents like mine who'd never let me leave the house and train me to be a soldier of God-fearing America if they had that much responsibility over me.

We have this debate a lot but just because something's in law doesn't mean it's followed. I knew a kid who was home-schooled and his mom only actually taught him three hours a day and it was shit like looking at google earth and Book or Mormon studies. And then my aunt (only 'welfare queen' I actually know) dropped my cousins out, officially 'home schooled' them but never actually did anything. The one who got everything sorted out works at a sex shop and the other two are in jail. This is just anecdotal and I'm not saying it's a majority (or even sizeable minority) or homeschooled people but I don't trust that this would be good for most situations. It can't be that good to keep your kids that sheltered (which is more likely in homeschooling) and I know I've seen even Phils agree with that (if I'm wrong call me out on it :p ). I know that's not true for all people.
(11-07-2014, 01:40 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't trying to stereotype home-schooling. You always get so pissed about this when my 'lol' is meant to ease tension. :flower:
I'm rarely ever pissed about stuff. I apologize if you think I am. I'm just a rather blunt person, that's all. No harm, no foul though, right? Smile

Quote:It's obviously not the best universal alternative to public schools though because most people have parents too busy for that or
Yes, parents who are too busy shouldn't be homeschooling. /shrug

Sidenote: A shrug emoticon/emoji would be cool. Joel?

Quote:parents like mine who'd never let me leave the house and train me to be a soldier of God-fearing America if they had that much responsibility over me.
I'm not gonna touch this except to say that I think you may be a bit biased towards your parents. I know you don't agree with a lot of what they do/say; but come on, man.

Quote:I knew a kid who was home-schooled and his mom only actually taught him three hours a day and it was shit like looking at google earth and Book or Mormon studies. And then my aunt (only 'welfare queen' I actually know) dropped my cousins out, officially 'home schooled' them but never actually did anything. The one who got everything sorted out works at a sex shop and the other two are in jail.
I would say that neither the mother who taught her kids 3 hours a day nor your aunt were following the law in regards to homeschool requirements. I imagine none of those kids did well on the standardized tests, either. In general, however, homeschool kids across the nation tend to do as well or better than their public school peers on standardized tests and tend to have a better work ethic in school.

Quote:This is just anecdotal and I'm not saying it's a majority (or even sizeable minority) or homeschooled people but I don't trust that this would be good for most situations. It can't be that good to keep your kids that sheltered (which is more likely in homeschooling) and I know I've seen even Phils agree with that (if I'm wrong call me out on it :p ). I know that's not true for all people.
I found plenty of times to socialize with other kids, and I was no more sheltered than anyone else. Yeah, in middle school, I had a bit of adjustment, because there were more people than I was used to. But it only took a day or two to adjust.
(11-07-2014, 01:50 AM)crazysam23 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm rarely ever pissed about stuff. I apologize if you think I am. I'm just a rather blunt person, that's all. No harm, no foul though, right? Smile

Quote:Yes, parents who are too busy shouldn't be homeschooling. /shrug

Sidenote: A shrug emoticon/emoji would be cool. Joel?

nah it's cool

Quote:I'm not gonna touch this except to say that I think you may be a bit biased towards your parents. I know you don't agree with a lot of what they do/say; but come on, man.

I don't even mean that as an insult. If I were to "accuse" them of this they'd probably be like "damn straight". Along with "you are a male so unless you get a doctorate you're working at the railroad because society hates bread-winning men." I don't even mean that most parents are like this specifically, but I think most parents have some sort of bias and/or specific idea of what they want their kids to be that could hinder their kids.

Quote:I would say that neither the mother who taught her kids 3 hours a day nor your aunt were following the law in regards to homeschool requirements. I imagine none of those kids did well on the standardized tests, either. In general, however, homeschool kids across the nation tend to do as well or better than their public school peers on standardized tests and tend to have a better work ethic in school.

Of course. I question whether or not this is always a good thing though because it kind of ties in with the whole 'trophy kid' issue. I don't see the good in deciding that you're kid is going to excel greatly in academia from a young age while denying them from a 'normal childhood' (again, not trying to stereotype and I will clarify this later) when that's likely to not be what the kid wants.

Quote:I found plenty of times to socialize with other kids, and I was no more sheltered than anyone else. Yeah, in middle school, I had a bit of adjustment, because there were more people than I was used to. But it only took a day or two to adjust.

That's good for you. I've just heard so many other stories contrary to this. I've met a few home-schooled people so obviously they were able to socialise and all that but they seemed to have more protective parents. Not trying to imply a negative relation between the two (this is personal bias) but I just can't imagine spending that much time with my parents/at home. Often (not always) it just comes off as controlling.
(11-06-2014, 04:10 PM)peternorthstars Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that is a good option. When I was still in school I would likely have agreed with that. With a bit more perspective I think that good teachers are incredibly important for increasing the quality of education for students and as a result improving our society as a whole. Otherwise there is a pretty hefty barrier both by stretching educators thin and increasing costs.
True. Though I wonder if it's possible to transfer current teachers to tutor jobs.

Quote:I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, have to be honest. As in teaching content at a university level?
Yeah. Basically I think that if we were to have exclusively home-schooled children, adults could go to school in a traditional sense since 1) they tend to be more mature, and 2) tend to study something they're immediately interested in.

Quote:For the bad ones absolutely. :p
Of course, heh.

Quote:Nah, I skipped all the time. There was an automated system that would phone home and detail all of the classes you skipped. But I managed to rig it so that system would call my cell rather than my parents. We would also just "go to the bathroom" for like 20 minutes and go hang out lol.
Hah, I did that a couple times in high school, actually.

Quote:I believe so, but it was also a pretty reasonable number. I skipped an unreasonable amount of time and never had this be an issue.
Meh, it's a good thing you knew your subject.

Quote:Heh, I guess. There are a lot of ways that this could be theoretically fixed with our fancy twenty first century technology.
Yeah.

Quote:I'm not sure exactly what the deal is in Quebec. Here there is a sort of set curriculum of knowledge the teachers are expected to pass to the kids. But there is also quite a bit of leeway in how they go about doing it. Do they have strict lesson plans or something?
Yeah, though like I said, it's happened where they taught us completely false information, either through material or through parenthetical information (the whole Voltaire story being one of those things; the teacher said that as a passing note -- I'm certain it wasn't in the official teaching material. At least, I sincerely hope).

Quote:I'm not exactly sure how that is relevant. It's not like students have to take on debt at 14 to go to high school. The problem is that nobody wants to invest in education and invest in future generations. There's that immediacy to politics that doesn't translate itself well to making sacrifices to invest in something that won't see benefits for 10-20 years. This is pretty fundamental to Canada's existence outside of education considering what our economy consists of.
If students still well remember those protests from a couple years back, I'm just wondering where the heck we're gonna get funding for teachers. Where are we going to cut? But yes, it's very important for politicians to look in the long run, something that isn't exactly their forte, as far as I'm concerned. Not that people won't still get mad if there isn't any instant gratification because you can't please everyone.
(11-07-2014, 01:50 AM)crazysam23 Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, parents who are too busy shouldn't be homeschooling. /shrug
As I said, tutors. When I say home schooling, I mean teaching on an individual or small group level.

Quote:Sidenote: A shrug emoticon/emoji would be cool. Joel?
Like this one? Confusedhrug: Haha.

Quote:I'm not gonna touch this except to say that I think you may be a bit biased towards your parents. I know you don't agree with a lot of what they do/say; but come on, man.
Assuming he's telling the truth, we'd probably have to instill certain laws that would prevent that from happening. One important thing you should learn from going to school is how to be autonomous and independent.

Quote:I would say that neither the mother who taught her kids 3 hours a day nor your aunt were following the law in regards to homeschool requirements. I imagine none of those kids did well on the standardized tests, either. In general, however, homeschool kids across the nation tend to do as well or better than their public school peers on standardized tests and tend to have a better work ethic in school.
I agree with this post. There is no way legal home schooling consists of just looking at Google Earth and reading the Book of Mormon.

(11-07-2014, 01:40 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]We have this debate a lot but just because something's in law doesn't mean it's followed. I knew a kid who was home-schooled and his mom only actually taught him three hours a day and it was shit like looking at google earth and Book or Mormon studies. And then my aunt (only 'welfare queen' I actually know) dropped my cousins out, officially 'home schooled' them but never actually did anything. The one who got everything sorted out works at a sex shop and the other two are in jail. This is just anecdotal and I'm not saying it's a majority (or even sizeable minority) or homeschooled people but I don't trust that this would be good for most situations. It can't be that good to keep your kids that sheltered (which is more likely in homeschooling) and I know I've seen even Phils agree with that (if I'm wrong call me out on it :p ). I know that's not true for all people.
People often use the "children don't learn social skills from home schooling" argument, which is true. However, it can probably be easily remedied, especially considering the social media we have today (and I do realize it does NOT replace actual social activity).

(11-07-2014, 01:50 AM)crazysam23 Wrote: [ -> ]I found plenty of times to socialize with other kids, and I was no more sheltered than anyone else. Yeah, in middle school, I had a bit of adjustment, because there were more people than I was used to. But it only took a day or two to adjust.
As somebody who has gone from shy semi-loner to sociable guy with lots of friends, goes out relatively often (last weekend was, veritably, grandiose), and has three bands, I can concur. In a matter of a couple days after starting school here, I was almost cocky when it came to being social. Coming here has been the best decision I've ever made.
Something that is probably worth noting: crazysam was only home schooled through elementary school. I think that's quite a bit different from being home-schooled through middle and high school too.
(11-07-2014, 03:10 AM)JoelCarli Wrote: [ -> ]As I said, tutors. When I say home schooling, I mean teaching on an individual or small group level.
Only problem is, not everyone can afford tutors. But, if they can't afford a tutor, they probably should send their kids to public school over...neglecting their kid's education.

Quote:Like this one? Confusedhrug: Haha.
Damn, didn't know that existed. :haha:

Quote:Assuming he's telling the truth, we'd probably have to instill certain laws that would prevent that from happening. One important thing you should learn from going to school is how to be autonomous and independent.
Yeah, but I don't know that US schools do a good job of that, really. Confusedhrug:

University-level in the US does a decent job of that, provided the student is willing to socialize. Being a creepy room-dweller isn't good for anyone.

Quote:I agree with this post. There is no way legal home schooling consists of just looking at Google Earth and reading the Book of Mormon.
Even in the laxest state, you have to at least learn all the basics, same as the public schools. In the more strict states, you actually have to learn even more than the public schools (on account of not having school-sponsored extracurriculars).

Quote:People often use the "children don't learn social skills from home schooling" argument, which is true. However, it can probably be easily remedied, especially considering the social media we have today (and I do realize it does NOT replace actual social activity).
An easy solution: get involved in home school groups and encourage your kid to hang out with and/or study with kids his/her age. They even have groups that do field trips every so often, and you get school rates because it is a school activity.

Quote:As somebody who has gone from shy semi-loner to sociable guy with lots of friends, goes out relatively often (last weekend was, veritably, grandiose), and has three bands, I can concur. In a matter of a couple days after starting school here, I was almost cocky when it came to being social. Coming here has been the best decision I've ever made.
Mhmmm! I didn't spend a lot of time doing school clubs or anything, because I commuted to university and didn't want to wait until 9PM to get home every night. But I always enjoyed hanging out with classmates and friends.

(11-07-2014, 03:26 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]Something that is probably worth noting: crazysam was only home schooled through elementary school. I think that's quite a bit different from being home-schooled through middle and high school too.
I knew kids were who homeschooled all through high school, and they were perfectly normal, well-adjusted, and social people. In fact, I've known enough homeschoolers to say that being "normal" is the norm, when homeschooled. Confusedhrug:
(11-07-2014, 01:40 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't trying to stereotype home-schooling. You always get so pissed about this when my 'lol' is meant to ease tension. :flower: It's obviously not the best universal alternative to public schools though because most people have parents too busy for that or parents like mine who'd never let me leave the house and train me to be a soldier of God-fearing America if they had that much responsibility over me.

We have this debate a lot but just because something's in law doesn't mean it's followed. I knew a kid who was home-schooled and his mom only actually taught him three hours a day and it was shit like looking at google earth and Book or Mormon studies. And then my aunt (only 'welfare queen' I actually know) dropped my cousins out, officially 'home schooled' them but never actually did anything. The one who got everything sorted out works at a sex shop and the other two are in jail. This is just anecdotal and I'm not saying it's a majority (or even sizeable minority) or homeschooled people but I don't trust that this would be good for most situations. It can't be that good to keep your kids that sheltered (which is more likely in homeschooling) and I know I've seen even Phils agree with that (if I'm wrong call me out on it :p ). I know that's not true for all people.
As someone who has met a bunch of homeschooled people, and know a few people who do it, it varies greatly. My siblings and I all played various sports through school. Went out of hung out with friends all the time. You know, normal stuff pretty much. When I went to elementary school I was painfully shy and HATED school. I made so many more friends (most of which I had previously been in school with, haha) after we started homeschooling. Mostly through sports and music.

Honestly, I got much less outgoing when I started college. Though depression and anxiety up until recently was the main factor in that. Though that's a different topic...

And yea, both of my younger brothers are now in college and really socially active and all that jazz. If anything I feel like we have so many more interests than the average person and can really relate to a bunch of people. Not trying to make it seem like we're better than them. Just that we had a ton of free time to pursue our interests growing up.


In regards to the actual learning. I actually rarely ever did school for more than 3 or 4 hours. I was almost always done by noon everyday. It's not that I did less (every subject, everyday.) It's just that you can move a lot quicker when it's just you. I'm sure some people take longer (my one brother always did work longer for instance) but I just like to work quickly and I can take in the information at that pace.

Pennsylvania is also one of the harshest state for homeschooling. You HAVE to meet the requirements that the state puts out, or else you have to send your kids to school. And it's not exactly a light schedule. I know my brother had some trouble his freshman year of high school because he hadn't read 25 books. Which is just ridiculous since I could probably name one friend of mine in public school who read 25 books in all of highschool :p They're really strict here. And thankfully it worked out for us. We all ended up getting pretty sizable scholarships to university (my one brother getting a full ride. The bastard, lol), but I have no idea of knowing if this is the norm. I know some people just like us, and others who I feel like would have ended up better if they had gone to school.

Sometimes I feel like the parents end up losing interest along the way and it only ends up hurting the kids. My aunt does it and she lives in New Jersey, which is a very lax state with their homeschooling laws. Her kids and bright, VERY socially active, all play sports, ect... But I know she's been getting lazy with how much work they do, and the state just lets it slide. She's only hurting her own kids and it makes me so mad because I know if she tried harder or they went to school, they could all be looking at much better prospects coming out of highschool. So I have a positive opinion of homeschooling overall, but I feel like it needs to be a lot more closely regulated in a lot of places.


So yea, I look back at my experience with a lot of love. I honestly can't imagine having been in school. I would probably be such a different person. Maybe better in some ways, but most definitely wouldn't have as many interests as I have now, and can't really look back at my childhood any more fondly.


Oh yea, my mom also has a degree in teaching. I can't really tell how much that matters though. I feel like teaching your own children is vastly different than managing an entire classroom.



This post was really rambling and crazy, because I really had no plan when I started it. But I can talk about this for ages so if you anyone needs anything clarified I'd be glad to.