I started a conversation and then didn't even respond to it. >_>
Anyway, I did not even have an opinion on this until recently. I think involuntary manslaughter (or maybe voluntary) would have been the correct sentence. In this specific case, it is difficult to really know whether or not he was racial profiling, but it is a serious issue and I am not upset to see people protesting it and the president commenting on it (even though I'm not a fan of the president). With Zimmerman there might be too many false accusations being thrown out (we will never know) but I think it is a good thing people are starting to care about this issue. Hopefully this won't be another Troy Davis and everyone stops caring after three days (it probably will). I also think the stand your ground laws are dumb.
What's wrong with stand your ground laws?
I think a person should have the right to protect themselves
It's not so much the law itself but the application and the way people interpret it that I don't like.
People should have the right to defend themselves, but stand your ground laws can lead to letting some reckless crimes being pushed aside as 'self defence'. With the Zimmerman trail specifically, it's hard to say, but given the circumstances I don't think he 'had' to shoot Martin. With the evidence we have, I'm not suggesting that we through him in jail for murder (it's easy to say 'you should have done this' when you weren't there), but considering all of the circumstances, I do not think it is unfair that Zimmerman acted recklessly, and the stand your ground laws have been used by many to just ignore that. A lot of people interpret stand your ground laws as being allowed to shoot an unarmed home invader when there are better options (disclaimer: I am in no way trying to make this sound like a common thing and I do not have a specific case in mind at the moment, but I have heard a lot of people display this mindset and I know we have all heard of cases in which the defendant gets off unjustly, using self defence. There was a study of this in one of the UG racial relations debates that went into this, which I may try to find).
I agree with some of that I guess. But I think a lot of it comes across as almost victim blaming. I don't view the person who gets shot while doing something wrong as victim like others like to do. Like when people say if someone breaks into your house you should run instead of confronting that person. It's like saying "well you didn't do anything wrong at all but you should let this person have their way even though they're the one breaking the law." The person who is having their rights violated is the victim and if they feel they are in danger I think they should be able to do whatever they want to protect themselves. They aren't the ones who know what is going to happen. The guy could be there to steal a DVD player or there to hurt them. He's the ones putting himself in that position. And if you do put yourself in that position you should have to deal with the consequences.
This story also comes to mind
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/jo...t-on-bikes
Basically a girl was kidnapped and a young kid went out in search of her with some friends on their bikes. Eventually they saw the girl in the front seat of the kidnappers car and when the kidnapper noticed he pushed her out of the car and took off. They got the girl but didn't catch him.
What bugged me about this wasn't the story but how some people in the comments on various sites reacted. A person would say something like "Man, if that was me I would have chased him down and thrown him from the car." And people would respond with "he's lucky he didn't go after the guy because he could have been charged with something like battery if he caught him." Or "oh, that's what we need, more vigilantism." That just seems so incredibly fucked up to me. I know these people are probably a small minority but it's like they value some piece of shit kidnapped getting away over maybe getting his ass beat and caught, because that would be cruel.
I know that that case isn't really stand you ground territory but it is related imo. Some people seemed to value the safety of the kidnapper over everything else. I'm all for people being treated humanely but sometimes it just doesn't happen. It pisses me off so much when people complain every single time the police kill someone. It's their job to protect people. If they feel that the person they are after is a danger to them or other innocent people around they have to stop that. Most times there isn't a "better way" that wouldn't put more people in danger.
Wow, ok that was kind of a rant and I went way off topic but I think you get the idea :p
Basically, this wasn't directed at you. More at people wanting to abolish all stand you ground laws and stuff. I do think some people can maybe abuse them in rare cases but for the most part they're there to protect people.
I'm going to stop not viewing this thread for days at a time, and I'm going to make a point to stop being lazy on the internet ("LOL I'll cite my sources later", said the cockatoo).
I think both viewpoints are valid. I've been trying to come up with a 'third way' law. The problem is it becomes so vague that it would just be up to the judges to decide, which leads to corruption and all of that. I don't think it needs to be a black and white issue, where the two options are you must try to run first or you have the right to 'stand your ground' (which I maintain is highly abusable). I am no expert and cannot think of a better solution that isn't so open ended though.
With Zimmerman specifically, it's hard for me to say there was no better option. I wasn't there, and that situation would put you into panic, so I understand I cannot pass judgement on Zimmerman with the evidence we have, and I am not suggesting he be given a lengthy prison sentence, or that he is guilty of second-degree murder (we will never know). It is difficult to say that if someone had me on the ground hitting me with a brick that my reaction would be to shoot him in the chest. The sound of a gunshot alone would be enough to terrify Martin. He may have panicked and just shot in order to save himself, but I don't think it is likely he just randomly shot and happened to shoot Martin in the heart. I think he most likely shot to kill. Even if I'm wrong, so much negligence was displayed that night.
On a side note I'm writing this huge essay on immigration just because I want to. This is when you know you have no life.
I always hear Americans talking about how we don't have a racist 'national' party, and until now, that was one of the things that didn't make me wear 'American' as a badge of shame; that we have nothing like the British National Party of French National Front (modern; not Great Depression era which actually did some good things).
Turns out we do:
http://www.americafirstparty.org/docs/platform.shtml
It's a good thing they aren't popular at all; but then again we have a lot of BNP equivalents within the Republican and Democratic parties.
(07-30-2013, 09:12 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]I always hear Americans talking about how we don't have a racist 'national' party, and until now, that was one of the things that didn't make me wear 'American' as a badge of shame; that we have nothing like the British National Party of French National Front (modern; not Great Depression era which actually did some good things).
Turns out we do: http://www.americafirstparty.org/docs/platform.shtml
That's depressing...
I don't want to spam the chat thread with my semi-pro-France rants so I'll put this here.
(08-30-2013, 04:12 AM)JoelCarli Wrote: [ -> ] (08-30-2013, 04:02 AM)carlcockatoo Wrote: [ -> ]This is the same guy who told me (while yelling) that the French youth in the Free French Forces who were executed by Nazis deserved it for being 'stupid fucking liberals' (which I was genuinely offended by).
Um...
Ouch? o_O
I was pretty pissed. He legitimately hates the French; it's way more than just the whole American/British friendly rivalry thing. He always brings it up as an excuse to yell at me yet he admits he refuses to learn anything about the French right after he claims the world would be better off if they never existed.
And what's hilarious is he basically said Nazism>Liberalism.
While we're on it I guess we can talk about suffrage since we were talking about voting in the chat thread. I find voting laws in the US to be ridiculous in so many ways. There is a bill in the Arizona House of Representatives right now to increase the petition signatures required for them to come into effect, which is basically to eliminate third parties and reduce ballot initiatives. I also think for federal elections, we need a standardised ballot nationwide. I think it is ridiculous how states decide what happens in federal elections. Just ask Brad about the Oklahoma ballot.
So discuss hating the French and voting I guess.
No offense.
But your dad sounds like a prat, although I'm sure he has decent qualities.
He has good qualities, and I respect him from a distance.
It's weird because since I grew up in a really conservative family I can still make myself think that semi-extremist right-wing views are the best. Sometimes a part of me still says 'fuck the French, raise military spending, end welfare, racism isn't real'. Some things just never go away even if I don't really believe those things anymore. :/