I mean, Eastern Europeans are white, but they're not always considered like that and I mainly separated them because their culture is quite different. Because they're that much more 'defined' as a culture - in that, they have some quite distinct differences because they're relatively recent big population where as other cultures, say Afro-British have been established longer, meaning they're more assimilated into British culture, so to speak - they tend to be considered 'outside' British. Accents tend to be more pronounce, English more broken, often the first maybe second generation, where as other ethnicities - Black, Indian, Pakistani etc - can be third, fourth, fifth etc generation. Their accents are more 'English' sounding, less like the accent of their origins, but Eastern Europeans still retain more immediately obvious features of their countries, so they get separated. I think it shows an inherent ignorance in our culture that it happens, and what's more is that Eastern Europeans all get lumped together - whether they're Polish, Latvian, Turkish, Hungarian, Romanian, whatever - but Germans, French, Spanish etc get individualised. Sure, those countries are bigger, with more influence, but it's still slightly sad. Like, there's a Hungarian kid in my school, and that's a big deal, because few people seem to actually know anything about Hungary. If he was Polish, it probably wouldn't have happened, but he's Hungarian and that's something some people haven't even heard of. If someone had spoken to him without knowing that, they'd probably assume he was Eastern European and not thought about it, but Hungarian sounds 'exotic' and he doesn't know what pudding or Halloween is, how cute. I feel that's kinda patronising, particularly as people probably don't know the first thing about his culture. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's just the vibe I get.
I remember a while back, when I was working over summer, my boss was talking about Romany Travellers with the owner of the place, who came out with a great line (and keep in mind, this guy would be - in line with proper British patriotism - the first to say we kicked some 'Nazi arse' back in WWII), which was: "Yeah, I think Hitler was right about them"
Wat.
This guy would be just as ready as every reasonable person to say the Holocaust was a horrific tragedy that never should have happened, yet he's more than happy to support the genocide of a race of people. I know this happens everywhere, not just over here, but I just find it mind-boggling that someone would go so far as to proclaim support to a genocidal dictator, simply because a small group of travellers stole some cinder blocks, but I digress.
Much of British patriotism seems born out of apathy, rather than love of this country. Sure, there is a lot of 'British pride', particularly in sports, but some seem to think it's the easier option to be patriotic, instead of thinking about why it's a good country. There's no particular reason for it, it just is. It's not so much like a fanboy, because people aren't out and out vocal about it, but it's still there, because it's easy to go 'I like this country'. But you're right, it isn't unique to here, I just think it's interesting. What's also interesting is that a British person will criticise their country, but someone else does? Nah mate, you can't do that. For example, I know a teacher who on a number of occasions has criticised Michael Gove (and rightly so, the man's an idiot who know nothing about education), but if say, you were to do that, he'd probably ignore your point to state something about your nationality. An American making reasonable, critical comments on our government? Unreasonable. Preposterous. It's like an almost in-born thing to dislike the 'colonials'. In America, it seems more of a conscious thing to be patriotic, but here it's almost subconscious.
It's one reason I like Stephen Fry, because he has the sort of 'British pride', but at the right times, and in a sort of light-hearted way. He can criticise this country, but it's not unfounded, but neither his is patriotism.
I should point out, this is mainly true for working classes and lower-middle classes. It's just who I know best.
(04-12-2014, 09:00 PM)Mr Maps Wrote: [ -> ]What's also interesting is that a British person will criticise their country, but someone else does? Nah mate, you can't do that.
Lol, that happens a lot here as well. You see that one guy who always whines about how the US is the worst country in the world and their dream is to move out, but then a foreigner disses America and they get defensive. It's kind of like how teens whine about their family, but then get defensive when you trash talk them.
I understand what you mean about Eastern Europeans being different, but America doesn't really do any distinction between that stuff anymore, we just call them white people. They do that with other races, even though that obviously has some consequences, like thinking all Hispanics are Mexican and all Asians are Chinese, or whatever Asian group is predominant in the area.
I think the two countries are honestly very similar. Same with Canada. Like I feel like I could move to either and my life wouldn't be very different. I think that's why we bash eachother so much. Because were kinda the same so the differences are fun to pick at.
Now I've never been to Britain and I'm basing this entirely off of what I've read in various places and heard people talk about, but I feel like a lot of British people don't understand American optimism and it's one of the biggest differences between us. Like we're told from the time we're born that we can do anything, and "The American Dream" is this easily attainable thing (which is an entirely different subject). So we have a lot of optimism about life. Like "Oh yea, everything has been going bad, but it's gonna turn around soon!!". Whereas I feel like a lot of British either feel locked into their lot in life or are just content in it. Americans are always striving for more. Not just materialistically either. But just in general happiness. Like if you don't like your job you can work towards one that will make you happy.
Though money definitely plays a part too. You see so many who have nothing who will just hate anything like a raise in taxes on the rich or socialized heathcare and education. Because people truly believe that they are the next one to catch that luckily break and become wealthy. "I don't want to raise taxes on the rich because what if I'm rich one day?" We're told all these stories about people who made it from rags to riches and so many people are sure they will be the next story.
Sorry, went on a little long there. Might be entirely unfounded and wrong but that's something I always notice when people from both countries are communicating. You can rip me apart if you want! :p:
I think the distinction also exists because the country simply less varied culturally, so it's more noticeable when one population is different.
(04-12-2014, 09:08 PM)Grungie Wrote: [ -> ] (04-12-2014, 09:00 PM)Mr Maps Wrote: [ -> ]What's also interesting is that a British person will criticise their country, but someone else does? Nah mate, you can't do that.
Lol, that happens a lot here as well. You see that one guy who always whines about how the US is the worst country in the world and their dream is to move out, but then a foreigner disses America and they get defensive. It's kind of like how teens whine about their family, but then get defensive when you trash talk them.
I figured it probably would. It's like people get uptight about immigrants who don't speak English (often people who are poor and not very well educated) and then move to Spain or whatever and learn 3 phrases of the native language and don't bother with any more.
Yeah, I see the same immigrant complaints, and how the English speakers go to other countries and don't bother to learn their language or cultures.
^ Yep. People have double-standards.
(04-12-2014, 09:14 PM)WCPhils Wrote: [ -> ]I think the two countries are honestly very similar. Same with Canada. Like I feel like I could move to either and my life wouldn't be very different. I think that's why we bash eachother so much. Because were kinda the same so the differences are fun to pick at.
Now I've never been to Britain and I'm basing this entirely off of what I've read in various places and heard people talk about, but I feel like a lot of British people don't understand American optimism and it's one of the biggest differences between us. Like we're told from the time we're born that we can do anything, and "The American Dream" is this easily attainable thing (which is an entirely different subject). So we have a lot of optimism about life. Like "Oh yea, everything has been going bad, but it's gonna turn around soon!!". Whereas I feel like a lot of British either feel locked into their lot in life or are just content in it. Americans are always striving for more. Not just materialistically either. But just in general happiness. Like if you don't like your job you can work towards one that will make you happy.
Though money definitely plays a part too. You see so many who have nothing who will just hate anything like a raise in taxes on the rich or socialized heathcare and education. Because people truly believe that they are the next one to catch that luckily break and become wealthy. "I don't want to raise taxes on the rich because what if I'm rich one day?" We're told all these stories about people who made it from rags to riches and so many people are sure they will be the next story.
Sorry, went on a little long there. Might be entirely unfounded and wrong but that's something I always notice when people from both countries are communicating. You can rip me apart if you want! :p:
I've never been to Oosa either, I'm just basing it off Americans I've known and what I've learnt from you guys and the media and all the jazz.
You're right - we are very, very similar. But you're also pretty accurate with attitude differences. I remember hanging out with an American kid when I was about twelve and his little brother saying 'hate is a bad word'. I burst out laughing (which was probably rude of me, I was simply caught off-guard) because the fact that 'hate' could be considered a swear word seemed crazy to me. Sure, as kids, we're told not to say 'fuck' 'shit' etc, but 'hate'? Nah, that's cool kids, be as pessimistic as you want; it'll happen eventually, might as well be when you're young - save some pain later on when your
dreams are crushed.
Maybe an exaggeration. Maybe.
But it was funny, because they always seemed kinda peppy and up-beat, but I was more subdued, cynical. My sense of humour was more 'black' I guess - as black as a twelve year-old can be anyway. Of course I was like that anyway - I do sometimes wonder if I was born middle-aged and jaded, but it still shows some differences.
haha the "hate" thing seems pretty crazy though I totally believe it.
I think Steven Fry said it really well actually when he compared American and British humor.
This:
Was in the related videos section, and it made me laugh. I like Moran, he's funny - it's very typical Irish (and British, even if he isn't) humour. Thing is, it almost feels like people don't realise it's like that for humorous effect and base their opinions about America on things like this. Sure it has some points, but most of it is just flippant humour - not something to make an opinion from, not least because there's more than one side to a story.
:haha: That was fucking great
Gonna have to look up more of his stuff
But yea, I agree. People tend to base their opinions on a lot of exaggerated stereotypes. Like I find the whole US southern thing way overblown. Yea, those people exist, but they aren't the only ones there. I doubt the average person here in Pennsylvania or down in Texas, or over in England is that different. There are obviously differences but probably less than basically every other country outside of Canada.
It's like when a friend of mine said that because I was cisgender, I couldn't possibly understand his suffering that being trans caused him. Sure, I can't know exactly what it's like without going through it, but I know emotional pain, I know depression and confusion and all sorts of emotions he's felt. Maybe for different reasons, but humans are not so different that I can't empathise in some way. It's the same with culture - sure, we have differences, but ultimately, we're the same species and we're not that far apart. We share 99% of our DNA. It applies most to Britain and America and Canada - our environment is very similar, so combined with our DNA, we're really very close to each other.
We hear about extremes from the media because people want to hear about them - they sell, because people believe people use it like some escapism for them, to know they're not as crazy or bad as some fat, bible-bashing southerner.
Also, if you're checking more Dylan Moran and you haven't seen it already - definitely watch Black Books, which he stars in and where my avatar comes from. It's great and it's how I found out about him. It also has Bill Bailey in it, someone else I love.