Music Talk Board

yea, that happens to me a lot

Makes no sense and bugs the crap out of me.

Idk if I'm just an ass, but I really hate when people try really hard to be "open minded" and "understanding" of others, to where they try to find ways to where I think they're tying to find excuses for why a shitty person is a shitty person. Sometimes it seems like they're trying to make you look like the asshole who's the intolerant one, instead of the asshole you're bitching about.

It's like they don't want to ever admit that some people are just assholes, or just a piece of shit, but they want to defend the person, and basically come up with an excuse that allows that person to be a shitty person. "Oh well your friend isn't a piece of shit for always bumming money off of you and never paying you back, he probably suffers from an abusive childhood and was probably raped by his dad, and, by not giving him money means you're intolerant of domestic violence." < slight exaggeration.

I am a strong believer in that there are no 'good' or 'bad' people. Only sins and sinners (for lack of better terms). I look at some of the most royally enormous assholes out there, living or dead, and part of me feels bad for them, while the much bigger, louder part of me calls them out for being royally enormous assholes. Sure, there may be some truly evil people out there, but I have a hard time thinking anyone commits a truly evil deed without having some major psychological problem they have no control over or at least incredibly substantial reasoning (or alternatively, incredibly short sight) behind their actions.

I'm not saying we shouldn't proverbially teabag to repetition tyrannical despots and serial rapists/murderers in the face, they need to be imprisoned if not (theoretically) put to death for public safety (the latter's another discussion), but if you put yourself in their shoes, logic only dictates you'll realize there are no inhibitions to your newly-found twisted thoughts. I believe that the "reasoned" type of twisted thought results from a slippery slope that once began with something innocuous or even sincerely well-intentioned (i.e. "improving society" -> "improving the gene pool" -> Social Darwinism -> Eugenicism -> Nazism -> Mass genocide, largest war ever in terms of death toll in recorded history by far), similar to what you've mentioned.

People who have had incredibly unapologetic lives eventually reach their breaking point and see no qualms with causing calamity on a grand scale. They reason that misanthropy, emotional disbalance and an unfair history justify a personal jihad against the world. Some of them might just have needed a hug every once in a while. I don't believe the Columbine shooters were incarnations of the Devil. One of the kids was a psychopath (thus unable to feel guilt, remorse or empathy by biological abnormality) and the other was a depressed kid with a long history of bullying who was fed up. I certainly do not condone their actions seeing as they've caused tremendous turmoil that still affects some people to this day, but if we're talking about anyone being possibly evil, most certainly their enablers are included in the mix.

I'm a philosophical determinist, which is in part why I have a rather grim view on the world.

Anyway, just my two cents. I have a tendency to say that humanity is a shithole full of morons, demons, narcissists, liars and anti-intellectuals (amongst other things), but deep down I know that I'm partially in the wrong for saying that, seeing as we're all guilty of at least one vice, and we can virtually all change, for the better or for the worst.

tl;dr shitty actions/vices =/= shitty people

Seems like you're taking my rant to a more extreme position. I was at another site ranting about this chick I used to be friends with. I was chatting with a friend over Facebook, and he brought her up, and we were both thinking "where the hell did she disappear to?". So we then ended up getting pissed off, because we then started remembering all the shit she did to everybody.

I ranted on a forum telling them about the story how she moved in with a group of my friends. It was fine at first, then she stopped paying rent, then disappeared for two or three days, then brought home some sketchy friends, then had them stay for a couple days, and eat everyone's food without their permission. Then she would also bum money off of people, and say she needs them for "feminine products" but then she'll come back with something bullshit that she doesn't need. One time she used the money to buy a cat, and then her roommates ended up buying food for the cat, and they were the ones taking care of it instead of her.

I told them about my friends getting fed up and kicking her out of the house. When I got done, this guy on the forum basically wanted to convince me that she did nothing wrong, because she probably had a troubled childhood, and we should excuse her for bumming money and those guys were assholes for getting pissed off for strangers eating their food.

Ahh, yes, I guess that makes sense. It's true that she deserved to be kicked out, if anything to learn not to behave crappily.

I was going for stuff like that. My favorite 30 year old probably is missing a few screws, but when you're just acting like a dick and being a mooch, then I don't think you can really defend a person.

Your example Grungie reminds a bit of an autistic kid I used to know she I was about 11 and he was the same age. Lets call him Tom because I can't remember his real name. By and large, he was a nice kid, but on occasions he had some pretty bad behaviours. He was a very sore loser, could get violent (both intentionally and in cases of taking things too far) and sometimes said or did socially unacceptable things, depending on his. We went a park with some friends and he and some of them decided to make a film if them fighting with sticks (i didn't join because i had hispterswag and i think i read a book). Anyway, he got waaaay too into and starting hitting people really hard and cut up a couple of kids. Not badly, only surface cuts and grazes, but unnecessary nonetheless. Another occasion we played a game with him, he lost, and my friend a (fairly innocuous but maybe a bit antagonising) comment about how he lost. He stormed off in a terrible rage to his room. Now thing is, these would be fine, if dealt with properly by his parents, but in the first instance they half-heartedly told him to be gentle bug let it carry on and in the second the other friend got blamed for being "rude" and because Tom is autistic he should be pandered to.

Of course allowances have to be made for people with conditions they have no control over, but equally, people on the autistic spectrum can learn to function well in society and using the condition as an excuse is not going to help that, particularly as his case was relatively mild. They need boundaries and consistency, which his parents didn't give him, instead used his condition as an excuse.

It's similar with people with people who have had shitty pasts. I know this girl who has had an awful past, she was raped, she was in a near fatal car crash and has a multitude of health problems. Personally I find her intensely annoying, because I don't like her personality (also she can be really quite bitchy while claiming to "hate bitches") but that's not connected with her past. I just don't like her. If I were to say that to some people I'd probably get called "heartless" or whatever because of her past.

I'm all for compassion, particularly as some of my friends have none of it. I'm also all for looking at things from as many perspectives as possible, which is again something many of my friends don't do very often. Some people I know are too quick to judge without thinking that ultimately, we're all human. It's important to know the reasons why people have nasty behaviours. I would like to hope that they can be changed into to better people. However, just because someone had a shitty childhood doesn't mean they can do what they want. Sure, say, an abusive father might explain why someone is in turn abusive to their kids, but that's a reason not an excuse. There are consequences to all actions and this should be recognised.

The thing that worries me in some ways is that some people have had such shitty loves that they don't know any better, they genuinely can't behave in other ways because they never learnt how to. Punishing them may just make things worse and prolong the festering problems. But equally, you can't just let them get away being a layabout scrounger or an abuser or whatever - they have to have some form of consequence. In an ideal world there would be some form of therapy/correctional setup, which was is both effective and ethical. Actually, more idyllic is that this sort of thing is prevented in the first place, with less poverty, better acknowledgement of mental disorders, better equality, better parenting and a "nicer" society (inverted commas because "nice" is a vague and ambiguous term so what would make society nicer is debatable and I don't know myself, to be frank)

It seems to me preventing bad behaviour is the most effective way to stop things. Although therapies and punishment would be still necessary, they would less so with prevention of anti social or just socially negative behaviours occurring in the first place. However, that leads to ethical issues, like the concept of "good and bad" and the idea of it leading to sci-fi-esque control of freedom and the diminishing of rights and individual choice. It's an extreme, but maybe it could happen. A Clockwork Orange sort of correction system would not be ideal.

(07-09-2014, 05:47 AM)Grungie Wrote: [ -> ]I was going for stuff like that. My favorite 30 year old probably is missing a few screws, but when you're just acting like a dick and being a mooch, then I don't think you can really defend a person.

Like Maps said, he might not know any better - it's a reason albeit not an excuse.

(07-09-2014, 10:08 AM)Mr Maps Wrote: [ -> ]I'm all for compassion, particularly as some of my friends have none of it. I'm also all for looking at things from as many perspectives as possible, which is again something many of my friends don't do very often. Some people I know are too quick to judge without thinking that ultimately, we're all human. It's important to know the reasons why people have nasty behaviours. I would like to hope that they can be changed into to better people. However, just because someone had a shitty childhood doesn't mean they can do what they want. Sure, say, an abusive father might explain why someone is in turn abusive to their kids, but that's a reason not an excuse. There are consequences to all actions and this should be recognised.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. They need to be fixed, so to speak, but with compassion. That's the point I was getting at. It's unfair that they don't know how else to behave or how else to cope, but at the same time, they're causing problems on the individual and even societal levels. I have the tendency to get really angry at people who behave in some ways but at the same time I always think about how I'd want people to at least understand my situation if ever I start behaving really badly.

Let a societal parasite speak their mind to someone who will listen, offer emotional support and get them what they need at the source (which could include some things like a father figure or a person that treats them right -- something psychological), and I can guarantee you that they will, in most cases at least, start trying to fix their mistakes and even do so much more for the world, even if that means that they have to do it from their jail cell. They might even be inspired by their lives behind bars to begin fighting enablers for crime in their city, state or country (such as poverty) and advocate better judicial systems within other countries.

I know that if ever I crack and commit a heinous action, I'm sure I am far more likely to begin feeling incredibly guilty if someone understands where I'm coming from and tries to help me than if they were to "correct" me. At that point I would dedicate a whole lot more of my life to cleaning up my act and regaining a positive reputation by doing a lot of good for the world. Mandela did it -- so can everybody else.

(07-09-2014, 10:08 AM)Mr Maps Wrote: [ -> ]The thing that worries me in some ways is that some people have had such shitty loves that they don't know any better, they genuinely can't behave in other ways because they never learnt how to. Punishing them may just make things worse and prolong the festering problems. But equally, you can't just let them get away being a layabout scrounger or an abuser or whatever - they have to have some form of consequence. In an ideal world there would be some form of therapy/correctional setup, which was is both effective and ethical. Actually, more idyllic is that this sort of thing is prevented in the first place, with less poverty, better acknowledgement of mental disorders, better equality, better parenting and a "nicer" society (inverted commas because "nice" is a vague and ambiguous term so what would make society nicer is debatable and I don't know myself, to be frank)

To continue my last point, I also agree on this point. In Norway, they have a place for criminals where they aren't "corrected", but rehabilitated. They have nice, comfortable, single rooms complete with nice, gourmet meals, a very large yard and basketball court, some of them have the freedom to leave their room whenever they want, so on and so forth. This, of course, discourages escape.

The recidivism rate is virtually zero.

Compare that to, say, American correctional facilities that have a major chunk of the population within their walls and the conditions are most often terrible. Most people who make it into prison once already have a much higher chance of making it back into prison than anyone else.

Yes, many people are angry that the criminals in the nice facility are treated better than many, innocent, common people and yes, there is the possible fear that some people in crappy situations (in Norway? Whaaaa?) might intentionally go to jail to have this special treatment (albeit it's only one facility that does this sort of thing), but I believe the main, pragmatic reason behind detention is not justice, but protection of the general populace. I'm personally for it, at least, in part.

(07-09-2014, 10:08 AM)Mr Maps Wrote: [ -> ]It seems to me preventing bad behaviour is the most effective way to stop things. Although therapies and punishment would be still necessary, they would less so with prevention of anti social or just socially negative behaviours occurring in the first place. However, that leads to ethical issues, like the concept of "good and bad" and the idea of it leading to sci-fi-esque control of freedom and the diminishing of rights and individual choice. It's an extreme, but maybe it could happen. A Clockwork Orange sort of correction system would not be ideal.

People believe that if the far-right ideas of control are bad, the complete opposite must be ideal, which is something I am totally and entirely against. We need to draw the line somewhere for liberties because eventually freedom no longer makes any sense. Midway path, man. Like you said, there would be controversy regarding what is good or bad in a truly free state (like abortion -- does the mother or the fetus have sovereignty over the other's choice?).

That said, I absolutely am on the same wavelength as you are, because a vast proportion of people who make it into crime are there because of poverty. Even some major gang members have Robin Hood philosophies wherein they take a large part of the money they make through crime and distribute it to the poor in their communities, because I guess they don't want people to suffer from poverty like they did, and hopefully the common folk won't go into organized crime like they did either. If there was no poverty, there would be much less shoplifting, mugging, murder, suicide, and so on.

All this to say what? That the true criminal is the Man, maaaaan *bong noise*


seriously though, don't do drugs, kids

I agree with everything you said Joel. I think one thing is a general lack of self-awareness. I don't know if this in general, or just in terms of 16-19 year olds, as that's my peer group, so it's difficult for me to make judgements on other age groups I have less exposure to, but it's something I seem to see a fair bit. I suspect it is quite common amongst this age group and as people mature it probably becomes less of an issue.

Like, for instance, personally I generally know when I've made a mistake and I feel guilty about it. I'm still very cowardly about it - which possibly relates to other personal stuff and I work on it - but even if I don't admit out loud, I will work to rectify it in the future. But some people can't (or won't, says the more cynical part of me) step back from a situation and go "well I made a mistake, I should work on this, even if they made one too". It links in with the people who are ignorant to their own actions. Maybe those people are just people who haven't matured mentally like others have - whether it be by poverty or poor upbringing or whatever - as if they still have the mentality of younger age groups. This lack of self-awareness then leads to them thinking they've been unjustly punished.

(07-09-2014, 03:20 PM)JoelCarli Wrote: [ -> ]Like Maps said, he might not know any better - it's a reason albeit not an excuse.

Well my problem is when people use the reason as a way to excuse the person in question, basically they're trying to say it's acceptable for the person to act like that, because "they don't know any better". Like my former friend I mentioned earlier, you're an asshole for saying she deserved to get kicked out of the house (or at least got what she asked for), and my friends are assholes for getting mad at her for not paying rent, and having strangers eat their food without their permission.